I'm pretty exhausted so I just have four questions (more or less) to get us going. Interact with me on this and I'll flesh out my thoughts on the comments.
Q. What is your definition of discipleship? What would it look like? What informs your definition?
Q. What do you think would happen if we took discipleship seriously?
Q. Compare and contrast what leadership in the conventional church is with what you find in Ephesians 4:11.....How would you define apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher? Which do we highlight in the conventional church?
Q. Where do you see Jesus embodying each of these?
More to come...
12 comments:
I feel that discipleship involves a willingness to live life as an example to others and a willingness to hold others up as examples in ones own life. (this is an uninformed definition)
If we took discipleship seriously there would be less of the attitude of I am only responsible for my own actions and the belief that their consequences solely affect me.
The conventional church doesn't always have the purpose described in Ephesians 4:12-13. And too often there is only one pastor teaching everyone instead of the interconnectedness that comes from the knowledge that God has equipped many people to lead and contribute according to their gifts.
Jesus embodies these through us.
(We were far more competitive in our softball game yesterday, we still lost but we can beat that team.)
Bando--
I like that your "uninformed" definition of discipleship includes action. Isn't it interesting that most people's definition has more to do with thinking and right thinking at that?
What, fundamentally, internally, individually and coporately would need to change to embody what you define as the expression of the church?
Glad to hear we're getting competitive.
Bando and Jer,
I think true discipleship, as you've touched on, has to move beyond what we think and start to look for the mind/body/spirit kind of integration that Eastern religions tend to be better at than we are. "Attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" in verse 13 - that's a big phrase... when my thoughts are in line with my actions, my emotions, the way I treat my body and how I use my body, every aspect of life, even then that's not the "whole measure of the fullness of Christ" if I'm focused only on how that's playing out in ME, but how it's playing out in relationship with the Church - "until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God." So discipleship is about individuals and communities learning how to live into the grace and the truth of Jesus as it impacts EVERY area of life - a process that won't ever be complete this side of eternity...
Mike--
Excellent thoughts! The simplest of definitions for disicpleship is as follows: becoming more like Jesus. This, like you and Paul mention, is holistic. It will inform every single aspect of life. It will happen individually and corporately. True discipleship--then--will produce holistic, healthy people who look, sound, taste, smell like Jesus. It will produce people who's lives are oriented by Jesus. It will produce people who's hearts are breaking for their local context and world. It will produce people who will do whatever it takes for the sake of the gospel.
As I consider the meaning of a disciple, it is one who is a learner, a follower, an adherent (sounds hefty, but I like it) to one who is teaching. This gives no set guidelines as to who is doing the teaching or who is doing the learning. Often times it is seen that the older will disciple the younger. This makes sense in realizing that often times the older have had more time to learn, and therefore perhaps more to teach. But sometimes the amount of time one has spent on this earth is not indicative of how long they have been a learner in any particular realm. It seems to me that we are all required to do the teaching and the learning at different times. I am reminded of hearing a story of discipleship that occured last week when a 26 year old man spent 2 hours with an 85 year old man discipling him and being discipled by him.
Rebecca,
I love the fluid feel of that which you suggst here.
I would challenge you to more clarity on what you mean by learning/teaching. Is this ontonlogical/philosohpical in nature or existential or both?
On another note--
I learned today that a single cell cannot survive on its own. It needs the presence of other cells to activeate/come alive....
There is certainly a more philosophical aspect of how at one point or another we spend time learning and also teaching, and even in times of teaching it is possible to learn from those who are being taught. But there is definitely a more applicable aspect that perhaps those in Open Door and in the church body in general should consider. I can't necessarily speak for others, but I was struck by something Bandit wrote above in regard to taking discipleship seriously, and how personal responsiblity comes into that. Now we both know how I feel about personal responsibility, but I'm convicted when I reaize that other people's actions in Open Door do affect me whether I like to admit it or not. So if other people's actions do affect me, and if I am someone who wants to know Jesus more and make him Lord of my life, then I should want the same for others around me. When I do consider that the way other people are living out following Jesus can enhance my own journey with him, and when I consider the analogy of the body as a whole I see that I function better, and the body functions better when all the parts are working the way they were created to be working. So what does this look like currently? I'm still pondering that, and would enjoy hearing your thoughts. As to the single cell not surviving on its own, if I do recall my Biology correctly there are actually single celled organisms that live on their own, however perhaps the interesting point is to look at the type of life lived by a single cellular verses a multicellular organism. The multicellular organism is certainly capable of much more. The many cells working together allow for higher functioning than the single cell alone. Perhaps an analogy for living life in community?
I have a moment here to add my 0.02 of a dollar... for what it's worth.
discipleship: hmm, when I think of this word I think of the Rabbinical model of passing on and discipling; however I think of it with a the twist Jesus brought to it... he invited Peter, James, and John to follow, to learn, to live, and to do with him. Rabbi's had the practice of being selected by the "pupil" so to speak. I also think of this book I read in 5th grade, "Johnny Tremain." The main character (Johnny) was an apprentice of a silversmith, his practice was to learn everything the silversmith knew, and eventually while under the safe umbrella start to be creative within the learning practice, and then even take on some of the regular clients, and maybe even take over the business if the silversmith had no son. but at least at some point Johnny would leave with some clients and have enough training to take on his own shop, all the while joining a guild as well to keep sharp and continue to learn from the others both young and old in the trade. Johnny and the silversmith that he trained under would be in a relationship until the death of one of them, too.
Now, I'm not sure if all of this is totally realistic in this day and age with people so transient. What I do know is that the men and women that have poured into me over the years I'm still in touch with in some fashion, and I see their fruit in me to this day in all sorts of obvious and mysterious ways.
If we took discipleship serious, i think there would be less heart break and more peace, but that's big picture. There would also be less transient people, too. The institution of Church wouldn't exist in the fashion in which it does today with faulty foundations. There would be more rock, and less sand. Sorry that for the moment this is an abstract and big picture answer.
Generally speaking the highlighted leader is the one who appears the most aesthetically pleasing both in word and look. She/he is judged and approved more on appearance and style than humility, integrity, and wisdom. Out of the 5, the one that most seen is: well, lemme say this: it's actually that one is not highlighted. The all but the prophet usually find themselves highlighted at the dinner table of the conventional church. People, even the other 4 leaders don't know how to handle the prophet... she's too strange, he eats locusts, they bring word of repentance and faithfulness. She reminds people that they are whores to other gods and entities. They carry around the mirror of God for his people to see their blemishes and people like to forget what they look like. It makes people feel uneasy when they are reminded that they are naked and shameful. The prophet is the missing dinner guest in the conventional church in America.
Time to run off again... sorry my friends, look forward to picking this up later. Forgive the lengthy answer.
Peace and Grace unto you.
Unconventional,
You don't ask for much do you? I see what you're doing. You get people to answer these four questions well and you've got the basis for a four message mini-series.
You ask: What is your definition of discipleship? What would it look like? What informs your definition?
I am not going to try to say what "discipleship" is. "Discipleship" is a helpful idea to think about, but by itself, it is too general, too abstract to show me who I am and how I should live. I would prefer to talk about what it looks like to be a "disciple of Jesus Christ." In order to do this, we need to look at three things. Who is Jesus Christ. What are some important aspects of a disciple's relationship to Jesus Christ. What are some important things that characterize a disciple of Jesus Christ.
I'm afraid it's now past my bedtime and I won't get a chance to work on this comment again until at least Sunday, so I will just try to talk a little about some important things that characterize a disciple of Jesus Christ.
Foremost is ardent desire – to know Jesus; to love Jesus; to follow Jesus; to serve Jesus; to praise Jesus; to communicate with Jesus; to share Jesus.
Second is hatred of all kinds of evil.
Third is a humble, teachable spirit which totally submits to Jesus Christ.
Plotkin,
I loved Johnny Tremain growing up.
That's all.
Okay, maybe that wasn't all.
If following Jesus as disciples is our most basic and, at the same time, highest call...
Why the hell is the profession of "pastor" marked by a majority of people (myself included) who are learning or have learned how to not take care of their own selves and do the things that cultivate their own discipleship, and instead spend the majority of their time keeping the plates of church programming spinning in the air and trying to love people out of their mostly empty fuel tanks?
Okay, I'm not as cynical as that sounded, but shouldn't the pastorate be marked by people who are models of lives of discipleship, not models of workaholism and shallow spirituality?
Mike,
Shouldn't pastors be healthy people? Shouldn't ministry pour out of who they are, not what they do?
Seems like our system of church hires and produces people who can crank out a good product. They pay people to have vision and produce program. This causes burnout--this is what I am beginning to feel. I am sick and tired of putting together another "worship service." I just want to birth a movement. Movements don't happen in a building once a week. Movements are viral, intentional. Jesus-movements and viral and intentional and formed/informed by Jesus.
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