During our stay in Israel/Palestine, our study group spent a fair amount of time considering the implications of Christian Zionism.
In short, Christian Zionism is the ideology that still sees Israel as God's chosen people who have a biblical/covenantal right to the land. Most Zionists believe that the sooner Israel repatriates "the land" the sooner Jesus will come back.
America is a Zionist nation, politically, religiously, and ideologically. Our majority context blindly adheres to foreign policy decisions made in favor of Israel taking back and protecting "the land." Our newspapers create language that reinforce faulty perspectives of Israel Jews (peaceful, victimized, "trying to come home") and Palestinians (terrorists, thieves, dangerous, interrupting Israel's attempt at "coming home"). The created language strengthens our "pro-Israel" and "anti-Palestinian" sentiments.
We cheer Israel on! "Take the land!", we shout from across the ocean.
The sooner they do, the sooner Jesus will come back...don't you know?
And then you go there and step off the manicured paths of the Jewish & Christian monopolized tourism industry. Instantly, you find yourself beneath the surface of our Zionist ideology and into real life. You begin to see how "the land" is actually being taken. You watch the caravan of Israeli-defended American-made bulldozers go from one Palestinian village demolition to another, the dust of real peoples' homes still clinging to their exteriors.
3 Quick Asides:
1. The Israeli military has a special contract with Caterpillar who has developed bulldozers for the sole purpose of home demolitions. Do you own stock in Caterpillar?
2. Over 350 Palestinian families were made homeless in 110 degree heat while I was in Israel/Palestine. What would you do if you someone came to your home and told you you had 10 minutes to grab your belongings because your home was going to be destroyed.
3. No reason is ever given for a demolition. Often times, the demolished village sits untouched for years while the former residents live in tents among the rubble. Does this make any sense to you?
One night, I made my way beneath the posh exterior...the world that Israel and America have collaborated in creating. In order to crack the surface, I had to walk through the American funded, Israeli constructed "300 Checkpoint." This included numerous metal turnstiles and metal detectors manned by armed 17-year-old Jewish defenders who looked at me with a mixture of curiosity, apathy, and disrespect. Once through the turnstiles and detectors, I entered a back-and-forth caged maze which eventually spit me out in the West Bank. Everything about the check point, I realized, was designed to humiliate and dehumanize the Palestinian.
I was in Palestinian territory and instantly felt at ease. As I waited, alone and in the dark, for my friends to arrive I updated my Facebook status:
"A solitary midnight crossing through the Wall last night. Humiliating, anxious, eerie. So good to stand in solidarity with the occupied."
The next day, I was talking to some Palestinian friends about America, American Zionism, and the American Church.
"When will the American Church see us as human beings?"
"You come here to see where Jesus walked. Why don't you walk like He walked?"
"Why is your country so selective in whose independence they champion?"
As the questions continued to come, I began to wake up to the tragedy of American Zionism. Our blind support of "God's chosen people" is funding a humanitarian crisis.
Simultaneously, I recognized that I have no voice in Israel/Palestine...but I do have a voice here.
"But I'm sure that I don't know people who are hard core Zionists." I thought to myself! "What does Zionism even sound like in the States?"
Shortly thereafter, I went to my Facebook again and found this comment under my status update from the night before:
"So, I am confused - are you a Christian or a Muslim? Do you stand with YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or with allah, the god who wishes the Israelites driven into the sea?"
Confused is an understatement. What was this guy talking about? And then it dawned on me:
"Ooooh!" I said out loud. "So that is what American Christian Zionism sounds like!"
Let's unpack this comment, shall we?
1. I'm guessing here, but I would imagine that this person has little to no real friendships with Muslims (or Palestinians for that matter.)
2. I'm continuing to guess, but I would also imagine that this person has little to no real friendships with Jews (especially Israeli Jews) either.
3. If this person has been to "the Holy Land" I would imagine that he experienced the bliss of an air-conditioned tour of the places where Jesus walked and little more. If he's been there, he has been intentionally shielded from the current catastrophe.
4. Lest we forget, every Muslim in the world is a part of Abraham's family and was blessed by God. There are Islamic lines through Ishmael AND Isaac.
5. Note his intentional "lower case" lettering of "allah" and "god". This represents the very kind of arrogance and disrespect that is resulting in homes and cemeteries being bulldozed, families becoming homeless, children having chlorine dumped into their eyes, and millions of people going hungry and thirsty in a place where there is plenty of food and water.
6. Guessing again, but I would imagine that this person has never read the Qur'an. If he has, perhaps he missed all of the many times hospitality, generosity, and peace are mentioned in the way the Muslim is to interact with his/her neighbor. Further, he would have recognized that there is no place in the entire Qur'an that speaks of Israel being "driven into the sea."
7. The irony is that the person who has actually been publicly quoted as saying something similar was former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin: "I would like Gaza (open-air prison of 1.5 million Palestinians) to sink into the sea, but that won't happen...."
Rather than including these thoughts in a comment back, I responded like this:
"I long for the dysfunctional Abrahamic family, of which I am a part, to awaken to our belovedness by God. I am pro-people and seek to stand with the oppressed, the occupied, the humiliated, and the powerless no matter their religion or nationality. On this, I take my cue from the Creator."
16 comments:
Thanks for the truth, brother!
Adam Estle
Hey Jer – a (hopefully) quick question for you
Some of your comments in this post (and another one earlier) make me ask this question: Do you believe that Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God?
And if your answer is yes, does properly following the 5 pillars (being a faithful/good Muslim) or obeying the Law (being a good/faithful religious Jew) qualify that person for eternal life with God? The qualifications for Islam and Judaism are not spot-on theological statements the way practicing Muslims or Jews would put it and you may want to qualify how you would interpret/understand Christian things like heaven, eternal life, or whatever – but I hope you understand what I mean with the question that I asked.
EJ,
Thanks for commenting and for your question. While I'm in process on this, what I am certain about is that the Resurrected Jesus is included in the Community that is our God. Any semblance of "God" where Jesus is anything less than an intimate part is a different expression than the God I put my trust in.
In Jesus, I see God expressing Himself to the community of humanity. I hear Him saying, "Look...this is what I'm like." This is especially pronounced on the Cross where, in a deafening silence God says, "THIS is what I'm like!" I captivated by Jesus and cannot understand God outside of Him.
Having said that, YHWH did invite His people to live in His Way before Jesus. Do Jews follow the same God I follow? In some ways...Yes.
Concerning Islam...I see a God (the Arabic word is Allah) who walked with and blessed Ishmael in the wilderness. Do Muslims follow teh same God I follow? I imagine it's possible.
However, as far as I'm concerned, it all comes down to what we do with Jesus.
Interact with me on this...
Hey Jer
Let me see if I can translate what you said (I say that with no disrespect, I just realize that the language you and I use seems to be different).
You said “the Resurrected Jesus is included in the Community that is our God.” Am I correct in assuming that by “Community that is our God” you’re referring to the Triune Godhead, and that you understand their relationship in historically orthodox Trinitarian terms? For our conversation until/unless you correct me, I will assume that that is what you’re saying.
Concerning Jews & Muslims – YHWH did work with His people before the incarnation, and it is the one and only same God (I would even argue that it was the Son Himself) who appeared to Hagar when she ran away from Sarai. That being said, I would be careful with the distinctions we make about God between the two Testaments. The Triune God is the One who chose, worked with, and called the Jews and it is He who works through His body, the church, today. And whether you’d see the Son as the Divine Person in the fire and cloud or as the one communicating with Abraham and Hagar, it is the same Triune and eternal God in both OT and NT. So when Jesus makes it plain in John’s gospel that if you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father either, it has clear ramifications for Jews and Muslims (and, I’d argue, non-Trinitarians) today.
So whatever we say about the roots of these religions or the shared heritage that is claimed, it seems clear that God Himself rejects worship that does not properly honor/worship the Son. Leaving aside (for now, anyway) worshipping God in pre-Incarnation Judaism, if Muslims or Jews today worship a god who by definition, confession, and conviction does not have Jesus the Son as an eternally equal Person in the Godhead and who, as the Incarnate Son, died and rose again to be the propitiation for the sins of anyone who repent of their sin and trust in Christ…the god they worship is not the same God that is revealed in the Bible.
So my short answer to my question that I asked you initially would be – No, no they don’t.
And so as you close your comment you said that it comes down to what we do with Jesus – I totally agree. Since Muslims and Jews reject Jesus as Lord and God (I believe that Christian theology of Christ makes us guilty of a high blasphemy – shirkh?), they worship a god who is fundamentally different than and opposed to the God of the Bible.
On a side note -
I know that you dislike intentionally using lower case letters when referring to Judaism and Islam. I do not know the person your comments above were initially directed at, but I do so out of clarity, not arrogance or disrespect. Also, I’d argue that my motive is ultimately one of love – both of God and men. If a Muslim or a Jew are in systems/religions were there is no salvation, no propitiation, no redemption and the only result is condemnation (as I believe), then differentiating between the true and the false in order to show a clear difference while bringing a saving message with the hope of winning that person to faith in Christ – that’s love.
EJ,
Great thoughts here. While semantically different, I think you and I are on a very similar place on the mysterious page of Trinitarianism. Like you, I see the Son as the pre-existent Son and, therefore, as fully present before they (read "Triune God") began to speak a Story into existence.
However, I would caution us in our Trinitarianism as this seems to be a system of thought that developed over time. The Oneness of God (Deuteronomy 6:4) seemed to be the bedrock for the Hebrew understanding of God.
I also think that we agree on the fact that what we do with Jesus is essential.
What keeps me in a process on this given conversation, though, is the "leaving aside" that you refer to in both your third and final paragraphs.
Namely, in the Hebrew Scriptures, I see a God who created a pre-Jesus system for dealing with sin. I see a God who could be worshipped in all of His Godness before the Son put on flesh and pitched a tent in our neighborhood. I see a God who was within reach of a specific community of people and, through them, to the world.
So, when people practice Judaism based on the Hebrew Scriptures, are they worshipping the same God as me? I've got some work do on this before I can be as black and white as you.
Notice that we haven't even touched Islam yet...gulp. I have much to learn of their perspective of who God is and how He operates within creation.
One additional thought that I'd throw out there: a Jewish rabbi shared with me that contemporary Judaism is maybe 10% Biblical. The additional 90% is based on what the rabbis have said over the years. Thus, I imagine that, in light of this, the god of contemporary Judaism probably looks far more like us than like the Creator.
As a follower of Jesus, I fully understand how this is possible and wonder frequently if I'm not guilty of the same practice.
Jer,
Thanks for responding. This discussion (or discussions like this one) is important, so thanks for dialoguing with me.
Regarding Trinitarian theology. It is accurate to say that the Trinitarian theology developed over time if you mean that it was flushed out/solidified over hundreds of years in the face of heresies that were unbiblical in their understanding of Jesus.
However, I do not base my Trinitarian theology on its historical development or church tradition (not that you do necessarily either, just making a clear statement) but on exegesis and a coherent systematic theology. As you no doubt know, Deut 6:4 is integral to Christian Trinitarian theology where we are absolutely monotheistic. I would affirm, based on and defended from Scripture, that there is one omnipotent and indivisible being that is God who exists in the three co-equal, co-eternal Persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
So, again, while I would agree and defend Deut 6:4 as foundational to my theology proper, Trinitarian theology is not something that I’m willing or able to be hesitant, indifferent, or flexible on when it comes to teaching or confession. Pastorally I understand that the individuals in the church, as a whole, are largely ignorant as it comes to this subject, but that is where pastors and teachers in the church come in – to help to clarify this (as much as is possible) and to give people the Biblical framework to shape their understanding. I have a little story about this when I spent 2 or 3 evening teaching periods with the children at our church (k-5th grade) talking about this with them. The short summary is that they were confused (and stayed that way) but they started to grasp the complexity and the Biblical distinctions that require us to be Trinitarian.
Regarding “leaving aside”…
I’m not sure what you’re referring to in my last paragraph – are you referring to my comments that Jews and Muslims (or any non-Christians) are left aside by God because they are not actually worshiping Him (because they deny the Son)?
As far as leaving aside the discussion of Jewish worship in the OT – the point was to avoid the discussion of how and why what God requires/accepts as far as worship has changed from being centered around the temple/tabernacle with continual animal sacrifices being made to being taken away from that because it was all fulfilled on Calvary. The reason I did that was only to try to get to the main question on my mind (I’ll refer to that again at the end of my comment). The issue – in short – is that salvation has always been by faith, and the worship in the OT was geared to bring about a desire/longing for Christ to come and fully and finally fulfill the law and the sacrificial system. And as far as a modern Jew – if they could get away from the 90% tradition and get to what they would see as a pure Torah based worship of YWHW (while still vehemently denying Jesus’ messiahship and deity), would that worship please God and qualify the worshiper for eternal life with the Triune God?
That last part hits on the very question that I asked with my first comment – namely, will a good modern day faithful religious Jew or a good and faithful Muslim inherit eternal life in paradise with God? It seems to me that the answer to that question (whether it’s “yes”, “no”, or something else) will bring clarity to the other issues that have come up in our dialogue.
trying to get my Bible to tradition ratio as close to 100:0 as possible…
EJ,
While I'm certain that your Trinitarianism is informed by the Scriptures, your articulated systematic theology on the Trinity is not overtly stated like that anywhere in the Scriptures. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you offer, I am humbly offering the reality that there is no getting around being informed by the traditions in our approach to the Trinity.
Having said that, I am one who is comfortable with mystery and an approach to the Scriptures as a Holy Spirit inhabited process of human beings sorting out the complexity of God, what He's like, and how He interacts with us as human beings. That is, while I affirm that the Holy Spirit inhabited the entire process of the Scriptures that I study and live, I also affirm that God allowed the fingerprints of humanity to streak through its pages.
You raise an interesting issue in your perspective of the pre-Jesus Hebrew experience of the God-Life.
For them, the God-Life seems to have required trust/faith but that trust/faith was to be demonstrated in right-living and was supposed to inform a distinctiveness through which the watching world would discover Israel's God and experience His love for them.
The interruption seems to be that Israel misunderstood who God was and, therefore, practiced a myth that God was tragic and had abandoned them. (This sounds similar to their contemporary story...see the Yad Vashem post). Thus, when the watching world looked at them, they didn't see Israel's God but, rather, saw an arrogant, self-sufficient people with seemingly no God at all.
The longing on behalf of the prophets, therefore, seems to be that the people would return to YHWH and, in so doing, become an accurate expression of YHWH in the unique soil of their time and on behalf of the watching world. Their ongoing misunderstanding of this necessitated God putting flesh on and living among us.
Isn't that the craziness of our story? The prophets longed for the tangible presence of God and then God became extraordinarily tangible. So tangible, in fact, that he lived in our neighborhood for 33ish years and we didn't even recognize Him.
Hey Jer,
While there are many things that have developed in our conversation that are worthy of further discussion, I do want to stay focused on the main reason for my initial comment to this blog post before moving on to them. I’m not trying to be dense, so please forgive me if you’ve addressed the question I raised and I just missed it – but I’m still trying to get the answer to the second question I asked on my initial comment.
The first question I asked was whether you believe that Christians, Jews & Muslims worship the same God. Your answer seems to be either a definite ‘yes’ or a hesitating ‘I think so’. If that conclusion is accurate – thanks. If not, please correct me.
The second question, built off an assumed “yes” to the first one, then is whether the faithful Jew & Muslim (along with the faithful Christian) will exist in paradise with God after they pass from this chapter of their story in this life. Now, you’ve twice said that you’re “in process” about what I’ve asked, but I’m unclear as to whether you’re in process on this second question, the first, or both. It seems to me when reading your responses that this process is related at least to the first because you indicated that you’ve got some work to do on this before you’re able to be as definitive (“black and white”) as I am.
Because the question can get lost in the shuffle of conversation, let me ask it again. Also - it was in seeking the answer to this very question that that made me comment on this post in the first place. The question is: Given that faithful Jews & Muslims categorically reject Jesus as God Himself, do you believe that the faithful Jew or Muslim will be with God in paradise after they die?
Thanks Jer.
I hear your question more clearly.
Outside of Jesus, no person can be in relationship with God. That is, all roads don't lead to community with God, but I do see a God who chases down all roads to be in community with people.
This latter part is what keeps me in process on the discussion of the Jewish and Muslim experience of God.
You see, Christian people tend to be very good at making very bold, black-and-white statements about other people and their experience of God void of any relationship or curiosity, for that matter, with said people.
My curiosity stems from a desire to understand where they are coming from such that I can, in an intelligent, thoughtful, humble and wise way enter into conversations about who Jesus is and the difference He made/makes.
If our black-and-white overtly stated starting point with Jews or Muslims is, "You're God is not my God!" then there is little chance of any kind of real relationship developing between us.
Here, I would offer a critique of the Western Church: I hear Christian people emphasizing the differences rather than seeking similarities and leveraging them for the sake of a person coming into a saving relationship with Jesus.
Thus, while our conversation is a cool conversation between two people who affirm Jesus as God and Lord, it is not a great start point in relationship with Muslims and Jews. I seek to imagine helpful start points which leverage similarities rather than differences. Once in dialogue with a Jew or Muslim, the differences do become evident. However, being that we are in a friendship, we both listen to each other differently than if my approach is to argue or intellectually persuade him/her into a relationship with God through Jesus.
As I've traveled extensively around the world and have found myself in the some extremely bizarre places (Jewish, Hindu, and Muslim) I have discovered that the Christian and the orthodox Jew tend to be the ones with the elevated anxiety around intellectualizing others into the God Life. Muslims, in particular, always start with courageous hospitality and friendship and let conversation about diverse experiences of the God Life emerge. Perhaps we have a thing or two to learn from our Muslim brothers and sisters? Perhaps they actually live some of the teachings of Jesus (Isa in Arabic) better than I...
Any ambiguity that you have heard in my earlier comments stem from my stated critiques, international and local relationships, experiences of God in real life and through the Scriptures, and my desire to see all people dancing in the rhythms of the Creator.
On an aside, I imagine that Jesus actually makes a Jew a better Jew and a Muslim a better Muslim...but that's an entirely different conversation.
Your point of view is interesting, and I think we're getting somewhere as it relates to clarity.
When you say that God “chases down all roads to be in community with people,” what does the end result look like when God catches the one He chases? Does it look like Paul on the road to Damascus or something different entirely?
Also - your statement that no one can be in relationship with God apart outside of Jesus sounds almost like what I would say myself, except your caveat at the end (where Jesus makes a Muslim a better Muslim) seems to blur any distinctive need for a person to actually believe in Jesus as both Lord and Christ – both God and man. By that statement at the end of your last comment you seem to indicate either that the Muslim who trusts in Jesus as his Savior and God doesn’t need to change his religion away from one that denies those very things or that he doesn’t really need to consciously trust in Jesus (not simply the prophet, but both Lord and Christ, fully God and man) but that Jesus can and will save him in and through a belief that denies who He is.
I’m very interested in hearing you expound more on that – or at least correct me if I’ve drawn some unfounded conclusions, and show me where I went wrong.
The reason I asked you the questions that I did in the beginning is that you and I both would, categorically anyway, play for the same team and we would likely agree on some of the fundamentals. My question was to see if we, as followers of Christ, agreed on the fundamental issue that for someone to be in paradise with God after they leave this earth that they need to repent of their sin and intentionally trust in the God-become-flesh-Man Jesus as their one and only savior.
I must say that I totally agree with what you said in that we need to leverage our similarities rather than our differences when we start conversations with others about Jesus. And God, in the pages of Scripture – both OT and NT – gives us that very common denominator to work with. Whether you’re a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, agnostic, cultural Christian, or a religious Jew we all share the commonality of sin. By leveraging that commonality and showing that problem puts us at odds with God in a very potent way, we can then show anyone that Jesus is the only solution to that problem. And with that we have a very clear and sure path that leads directly to Christ!
I've enjoyed reading this conversation you've been having. In the past, I've had the honor of being friends with Muslims and with Christ-followers who were once followers of Islam, and so my comments are less philosophical than the discussion above, but a bit more practical and experiential.
I have known Muslims who had visions of Christ, in which Jesus met with them personally and individually, and changed their lives forever. From then on, these believers were convinced of the true identity of Jesus. However, out of societal pressures and/or ignorance, these believers in Christ still went to the mosque, still listened to the imams, still practiced Ramadan fasting. As one man whispered to me, "No one knows that when we pray at the mosque, I pray to Jesus." Such people often receive visions of Christ, and come into a relationship with Him, after practicing devout Islamic prayers during Ramadan asking God for visions. So, this Muslim who sought God with all his heart--thinking he was pursuing the G/god of Muhammad--meets Jesus. (Most believers who lived a story such as this eventually separate themselves from their former practices as they discover freedom in Christ, but the change is by no means immediate--usually takes years.)
Is the G/god of Islam the same as the God of Christianity? I don't know. But I know that my God, my Jesus, hears the prayers of those who seek Him, even if those prayers use the "wrong" titles for Him and take place in the "wrong" places. The Holy Spirit interprets our hearts' longings to God, and He clearly answers the prayer of Muslims by sending Jesus in visions.
EJ--That was a very long answer to your second paragraph above!
I can't speak for Jer, but when I read his comment "Jesus actually makes a Jew a better Jew and a Muslim a better Muslim," I understood it to mean that the way of Jesus--his teachings, his example--can only improve our lives. No matter what we believe, the salt of the gospel improves our flavor, so to speak. If our ultimate goal is to gain entry to Heaven, or to define the entry qualifications for others, then the fact that Jesus' way improves the lives of non-believers on earth may not count for much. But that's a big "if," and one I'm not ready to sign up for quite yet.
This statement also caught my attention: "we need to leverage our similarities rather than our differences when we start conversations with others about Jesus." My interest is not with the similarities/differences distinction, but with the purpose and duration of interaction. If I am to love my enemies and my neighbors, then I need to use similarities to build relationship with the purpose of loving that person, not to use that similarity as tool to leverage her into the Kingdom. In other words, my neighbors and enemies need to know that my love for them is not dependent on their eventual decision to follow Christ. Of course I will take every opportunity to discuss the Kingdom and the Gospel, but the relationships I build would seem false to me if they were set-up simply as an end-run to conversion.
Finally, yes. Sin is a great commonality among humanity, but it is not the only one, nor do I believe it is the most important one. The most important commonalities among humanity is that we are made in the image of God and that He loves us. God's love is more powerful than sin. The cross taught us that.
Thanks for letting me into your conversation. I know, EJ, that you were primarily interested in a conversation about whether or not Jews/Muslims/Christians worship the same God, and I made only a situational argument here. And forgive me if I became overly-semantical. But words are so important, and defining our terms can only help.
Again, thanks!
Annie
Annie,
Thanks for your contribution. Much of what you have said is experiential and I am in no position to challenge what you’ve experienced or the experiences of people that you’ve mentioned. What I mean by that is this: I believe that’s what you and the others you refer to believe and have experienced. What I can do is to question whether an experience/feeling/belief is consistent with what the Bible teaches because experiences and feelings can be false, but the Bible properly interpreted cannot be. And that’s where I try to focus.
You said, “If our ultimate goal is to gain entry to Heaven, or to define the entry qualifications for others, then the fact that Jesus' way improves the lives of non-believers on earth may not count for much. But that's a big ‘if,’ and one I'm not ready to sign up for quite yet.”
While I would not state it in the exact same way, I understand what you mean. If you tweaked it a bit, then I think I’d agree with that statement. In stating it the way you did, it is putting the benefit as being more important than the benefactor, and that’s where I would reject it. I would agree, basically, with this: Man’s ultimate goal is to glorify God and the ultimate benefit for those found in Christ (Christians) is to be with Him forever in paradise. The key is to put heaven as the benefit/result, but not as the main goal, and the eternal wrath of God as the just due for all people who die in their sins.
You also said, “In other words, my neighbors and enemies need to know that my love for them is not dependent on their eventual decision to follow Christ.” I would disagree with this characterization of where I would come from (not that you were applying that to me, but to a position closer to what I have articulated in this conversation). They need to know that my love is dependent on Christ’s love for me (because mine flows from that) and that my desire is that they repent of their sin and trust in Christ, but my love for and kindness toward them is not dependant upon a possible future conversion. While that is the hope and goal, the result is not a requirement for my continued love.
Regarding commonalities. Humans all share the image of God. Agreed. God has a love for all people without exception that is demonstrated most plainly in His delaying judgment (their own death and the end of the age), giving rebellious sinners life and breath while every inclination of the heart of man and all of his thoughts are opposed to God (Gen 6:5; 8:21) and find His words to be foolishness (1 Cor 1:18). And while we share that, our biggest concern is that the wrath of God against sin, and the one who commits sin (or his Substitute), is terrible. The cross taught us that too. And it is only when we see the whole picture does the special love of God displayed on the cross and fully realized in those who are in Christ actually come into full relief.
Both you and Jer have answered my question (to one degree or another) about whether you believe Muslims and Jews worship the same God. Thanks.
However, neither you nor Jer have answered (unless I’ve missed it) the end-goal question that I initially posed. That question is this: Given that faithful Jews & Muslims categorically reject Jesus as God Himself, do you believe that the faithful Jew or Muslim will be with God in paradise after they die?
I eagerly await both of your answers to this question.
EJ--
I didn't answer your "end-goal question" because I can't. Nor do I want to. It is not my job to judge the hearts of humanity.
God is judge, and God is love. He invites us to join Him in only one of those roles, and the world is better for me not being a judge.
I don't agree that the ultimate benefit of knowing Christ is to be with Him in Heaven. I believe the ultimate benefit is the relationship itself. If there were no Heaven, I would still follow Christ.
Trying to actively and purposefully love those around me, and die to myself, takes every bit of my energy. I don't have the will, the strength or the wisdom to separate the sheep and the goats. Which is OK. It's not my job. God gives me strength to do what He has asked me to do, and that is all I need.
Jesus makes it clear that He is the only way to the Father. But, I can't equate "the way" with a set of spiritual laws, or a set prayer, or a certain systematic theology. It seems like in the last 2,000 years Christians have taken the route of the Pharisees, and devoted themselves to systems and definitions, rather than to passionate and sacrificial love for our neighbors and enemies. I'd rather talk about "How do we love people who are blind to the realities of Christ, and through our love show them the person of Jesus?" rather than "Will they be in Heaven?" (Knowing, of course, that such love comes from the Father, not from ourselves.) Jesus knows who He knows. I know I'll be surprised in Heaven at who is there. And who isn't.
So, I've addressed (although not answered) your question. Take mine on. How--personally, intentionally, meaningfully--do you love those around you who currently reject Jesus?
That's my interest. I ask because I--like most of us--find myself mired in my habits. Hearing how others feed the hungry, clothe the naked and give water to the thirsty encourages me to reinvest in my desire to allow God to bind up the broken-hearted through me. I've been working on the Greatest Commandment and "the one like it" for 25 years. I'm nowhere near alignment, but I persevere.
I can tell you enjoy argumentation and debate, but I'm afraid you are asking for bottom-line answers from the wrong people. :)
Annie – thanks for responding. I will gladly attempt answer your question. Fair is fair. FYI – my motivation and goal in asking (repeatedly) the questions that I did was primarily to gain clarity. I wanted to see if my deduction from what I was reading was accurate. So far, much to my sorrow, it seems that my initial deductions were pretty close to the mark.
Furthermore, to the extent that your last response is indicative of the teaching at open door community, that answers my question to Jer too. This is also reciprocal in that it is fair and right to draw conclusions that what I say and believe is a reflection (imperfect, but generally pretty good) of the church where I’m a member.
You asked: “How--personally, intentionally, meaningfully--do you love those around you who currently reject Jesus?”
Fair question. As I think about that, I am very aware that I am surrounded by individuals who reject Christ. Without describing my actions and relationship with each of those persons, let me generally say this: to the extent of the relationship that I have with them, I show (by words and or actions depending on what is called for) that I am generally concerned for them, their lives, their loved ones, and their well being.
As an example, there are about a billion little kids in my neighborhood who love to come over to our home, play with my children, and be around our family. Most of them have family situations that are very much different than ours, and we (my wife and i) pour love, time, and patience into their little lives.
I hope that answers or at least addresses your question.
In your comment you said, a few times, that your job is not to judge and that everyone is better off if you’re not a judge. Based on the context of the conversation, the implication seems to be that I am acting as a judge and so would you if your conclusion was also that faithful Jews and Muslims (or whomever) will not be in paradise with God when they die, but they will endure His eternal wrath because they have not believed in the Son of God.
If you’re riding in a car with a friend and she is driving 20 MPH over the speed limit, are you judging her or being a judge if you tell her that if she gets pulled over she’ll get a ticket? No. You’re warning her of the consequences that follow from her current course of action. That is what I am doing when I answer the question the way that I do. I am like the passenger in the car. I am not like the police officer who gives out the tickets, the judge passing sentence and enforcing judgment, nor the correctional facility where an offender might be sent.
I’m not sure if you’re saying that I’m separating the sheep from the goats by what I say and believe, but I assure you I am not. Like the above analogy – if someone is speeding and you tell them of the consequences, you’re not the judge…you’re just stating a fact. If someone is living in such a way that utterly denies the gospel and or they believe things contradictory to the gospel and I tell them that this is indicative of goats, I am not separating goats from sheep, I’m lovingly informing them of what the situation seems to be.
Regarding “the way” – Do you believe that the message of the Bible is so utterly unclear that we are incapable of clearly articulating what one must believe in order to obey Jesus’ command that we must repent and believe in the gospel? The gospel of John alone repeatedly emphasizes that Jesus is God, that you must believe in Him, and that if you don’t you’re also rejecting the Father. And that’s just the gospel of John. Remember that while chastising the Pharisees, Jesus didn’t say that they should have just ambled along in ambivalent ignorance and theological squishiness. He chastised them both for not having understood the Scriptures and for building their own system of works-righteousness on top of God’s revealed Word. If the Pharisees had been more faithfully diligent, not less, to interpreting what God said in the Law and Prophets, they would not have missed Who they were opposing.
“It seems like in the last 2,000 years Christians have taken the route of the Pharisees, and devoted themselves to systems and definitions, rather than to passionate and sacrificial love for our neighbors and enemies.”
I think that if you look at 2,000 years of Christian history – the acts of love and self sacrifice that you see starting from the martyrs of the 1st century through those being slaughtered today in other nations (by communists, Muslims, Hindus or whoever) to the great missionary work in the last few hundred years with people like Carey, Judson, Elliot, and many more including a few who sold themselves into slavery to minister to slaves, as well as the hospitals, schools, and orphanages that were started by Christians in the US to the crisis pregnancy centers, soup kitchens, and places like that in the modern world – you see the outworking of specific theological systems and definitions on what the gospel is that leads to passionate and sacrificial love for neighbors and enemies. To divorce one from the other is to misread and misunderstand Christian history.
But perhaps more to the feeling or idea behind what you said, I think that someone who has all knowledge of doctrine without any overflowing acts of service, love, and sacrifice is probably either a really immature Christian or not one at all. Likewise, I think that someone who is always going, doing, serving, and loving and yet stays intentionally ignorant of doctrines because “doctrine divides” is also either a very immature Christian or not one at all. Having said that, I am by no way equating myself with the former or you with the latter, but just trying to show the two extremes.
Thank you for sharing a bit of what you and your wife are doing in your community. I know that you are a true blessing in the lives of the children who visit your home.
You are absolutely correct about the good works that Christians have done/are doing, and you are right in identifying people who have devoted their lives to His work. However, my understanding and experience is not that such work has sprung from "specific theological systems and definitions," but rather that the systems and definitions have been created later to codify the acts of love. That is a blatant generality, and others may heartily disagree with me.
Your metaphor about being in a speeding car with a friend is apt and in line with my practices. However, I will not stand on the side of the freeway and yell at speeding traffic. From my perspective, you are asking me to make a public pronouncement on the internet about the eternal damnation of billions of people whose individual hearts I don't know... and I won't do that. Our disagreement seems to be that you don't understand my reluctance and I don't understand your insistence. I hope we can let go of those non-understandings and trust that we each are pursuing Jesus with all our hearts and minds.
Please believe that I know the laws. At the same time, Scripture regularly pairs "greatest" and "love" (Mark 12:28-31; I Cor 13:13, for example). I believe that centering conversations around the topic of love communicates the gospel far more effectively than conversations that begin with/center on sin, hell, etc. Yes, understanding that "all have sinned" is essential to understanding humanity's relationship with the Father, but it is not where I pitch my tent. If that feels like " ambivalent ignorance and theological squishiness," well, I hope we can agree to disagree.
It seems to me we've hit an impasse, and further conversation will likely be futile. If you wish to respond, I will read your words carefully, but this will be my last post in this thread. Go with God, my friend.
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